Rovman
1 decade ago
LFR -loot system
Could we please get a clarification on the new loot system as currently, every fansite going has it worded differently, leading to very conflicting ideas of how its going to work. No site has it written down in such obvious language as to actually explain it, its very confusing.

How I understand it:



  • Boss dies - we all roll (do we have to actually roll or is it automatic now?)
  • Game selects the top 'n' rolls and declares them winners.
  • The game then checks that bosses entire loot table, picks out all the items they could use and then randomly gives one of them to each of the winners. (is it random, or is it smart? will it give duplicate items, will it favour main spec or is it just random?)
  • If there's no useable loot on that boss, the winners instead get gold


This is the best I can comprehend it. Some people are suggesting that everyone rolls and the system will decide if they win or lose, like say "everyone who rolls greater than 80 wins" or some such, leading to a possibility that everyone wins something, or nobody wins anything and every other possibility in between. I don't think this is correct though.

Now people are also saying this wont fix the problem of ninjaing. when in fact it does. The boss wont "drop loot" anymore, you wont see items upfront so nobody will ninja "your sword" because its not decided what items people get untill after they have already been declared winners.
Wryxian
1 decade ago
LFR -loot system
We're working on getting a new Coffee with the Devs (aka Dev Watercooler) out, which will explain the new system in a very clear and precise way.

I don't want to post everything that'll be explained in that article, however essentially for Raid Finder it's currently intended to be like this: the boss will die, the game decides who wins loot. There'll be no rolling or passing.
Wryxian
1 decade ago
LFR -loot system
While we've got you here, will the 2 hour window to trade items with other players still exist? Assuming someone wins something they've already won(the week before or so) and their friend could use said item.
For items received this new way, via the Raid Finder, I believe the answer is no.
Wryxian
1 decade ago
LFR -loot system
I don't want to post everything that'll be explained in that article, however essentially for Raid Finder it's currently intended to be like this:

the boss will die, the game decides who wins loot. There'll be no rolling or passing.


Will this bee the same for LFG/PuGs?

The current intention is just Raid Finder and world boss encounters to start with. As with pretty much everything in a beta (and even outside one) this may change over time.
Wryxian
1 decade ago
LFR -loot system
Another thing to keep in mind is that just because — for example — another holy priest in your group gets loot from the boss that's suitable for a holy priest, doesn't exclude you from getting the same item also, if you are a holy priest too.

You could fill the raid with priests and you'll all have your own personal chance to win a loot item suitable for you. A chance which doesn't decrease just because you're grouped with others that could receive the same loot, and a chance that also doesn't decrease if say 5 other people actually do receive the same loot item as well.
Wryxian
1 decade ago
LFR -loot system
23/03/2012 14:09Posted by Zolaaris
Not being able to trade loot would be just ... I don't have an appropriate word for that. Not everyone has the same items on her/his wish list as the game thinks she/he is supposed to. It would simply be very, very wrong.
If you are not happy with the spec-appropriate items that the Raid Finder/World Boss loot system gives you, then you can still go to normal or heroic raids or dungeons to get alternative gear through the usual system.

Not allowing trading is there for a very good reason and is not just an arbitrary change.
Wryxian
1 decade ago
LFR -loot system
23/03/2012 14:18Posted by Krostas
Does that possibly mean you don't have to be grouped to kill a world boss, but anyone participating in the fight will be eligible for loot (similar to some current quest mob mechanics)?
I suspect the usual rules for tagging/"tapping" mobs would still be in place.
Wryxian
1 decade ago
LFR -loot system
23/03/2012 14:21Posted by Ratkin
Will the loot you can receive be based on your Class, current spec/what you signed up as or the 2 specs you have? If it's just based on your class, I know with my luck I'll end up with all Holy gear even though I'm Prot/Ret.

It would seem to be currently class + current spec.

23/03/2012 14:21Posted by Ratkin
Also please, please don't bring this system to LFD, it's bad enough that we have to be babied so much because some people whine when they don't get the loot they thing they deserve.

The idea of adding it at first just for Raid Finder and World Bosses leads me to believe we are being careful with the introduction of this new loot system, and that we will slowly and methodically evaluate its merits and appropriateness — together with player feedback — before considering introducing it for other content.
Wryxian
1 decade ago
LFR -loot system
tbh sounds like an awesome system to me, I've run LFR a bunch of times and it's annoying to see people just clicking need whenever they can, claiming 'oh it's for my offspec' or some other obvious lie ;)

I also REALLY like the idea that if someone else in your raid gets a peice, it doesn't mean you can't get it as well :D

I'm also pretty excited by it, and just really glad that we're looking at making such substantial changes to the loot system.


the question is... Will the game automatically give you your biggest upgrade, or will it just choose something randomly?

Say the boss has two items, ilvl 500 Super sword of WTFPWN, and ilvl500 Trinket of not dieing EVER..

Then I have the ilvl 450 not super, but still pretty good sword of WTFPWN, and the ilvl 1 trinket of wtf why do you have this equiped, would the game give me the trinket over the sword, because it's a MUCH bigger upgrade, or would it be luck?
The effectiveness of the game's ability to select appropriate loot items, and whether it gives you the highest upgrade first or not, is yet to be revealed.
Wryxian
1 decade ago
LFR -loot system
23/03/2012 14:18Posted by Krostas
Would it be possible to make players receive loot not only for the talent spec they are currently having in the raid, but also for their second talent specialization IF they have an appropriate role selected when signing up for the LFR tool?
Would it be possible? I imagine, as with almost everything, it would be. Is it intended to work this way? Currently I believe it is not.
Wryxian
1 decade ago
LFR -loot system
23/03/2012 15:15Posted by Arctagon
I'm not entirely certain I understand you there. If a boss drops one item that's suitable for a holy priest, there is a possibility that several holy priests in the raid group will get this item? So the item kind of duplicates itself and is distributed between all the holy priests who are considered winners?

Yes, that is what I am lead to believe.

23/03/2012 15:15Posted by Arctagon
I also have the impression that there is no way of knowing what the boss drops before the loot is distributed. Is this correct? If so, it would feel like the looting process is in a way enclosed and hidden away from us, in such a way that we don't know what's going on, which in turn makes it somewhat chaotic. You know, when loot suddenly pops up in our bags, most of us will most likely think 'what on earth just happened?'.
Hrm. Bosses will still have loot tables, which just like now, we (players) know about.
Wryxian
1 decade ago
LFR -loot system

I have never seen a sinlge blue being more active in a single thread than this. Your answers and participation are truly appreciated, Wryxian. :3
Well I've hardly posted in ages, but there's something about World of Warcraft betas that just wake something in me and I go all forum crazy. I suspect this is just the beginning. :)
Wryxian
1 decade ago
LFR -loot system
Firstly, keep in mind this is for the Raid Finder + World Boss loot.
23/03/2012 15:51Posted by Talen
So - loot trading is going to be a thing of the past? As well as rolling on behalf of another player?

Yes and yes. Rolling itself, as a user interface option, would be gone completely.
23/03/2012 15:51Posted by Talen
What about rolling for off spec?

I believe the loot role will be for your current spec only.
23/03/2012 15:51Posted by Talen
Will players be allowed to skip or give up a roll?

No. If you don't want what you receive, you can sell it or disenchant it...etc.
23/03/2012 15:51Posted by Talen
What about disenchant rolls?

There will not be this option, or indeed any option, as there will be no user interface for loot.
23/03/2012 15:51Posted by Talen
Is there a possibility noone will win?
I don't think so, no.
Wryxian
1 decade ago
LFR -loot system
23/03/2012 16:28Posted by Riize
To be honest the new loot rule isn't sounding too good, what if someone was to win what they had previously won? they would have to sell it/DE it.
I'm not sure this would happen in the new system. But it does happen in the current system. It's better than not receiving anything at all, though, as you can still gain something from receiving it by just selling or disenchanting it.

So just like now, in the new system if you don't get what you want, you try try again. :)
Wryxian
1 decade ago
LFR -loot system
23/03/2012 20:07Posted by Blueberry
Yes, but I was referring to this. Your own personal chance to win loot. I worded my reply wrong sorry, I meant to say that it feels as though its heading in that direction, loot for everyone.
Not entirely sure where you're going with this. Not everyone will get loot from a boss kill, it will still remain like today where only some of the kill participants get loot.
Wryxian
1 decade ago
LFR -loot system
23/03/2012 19:52Posted by Talen
I think the only disappointing thing would be the lack of support for off-spec roles.
We have this in mind and are considering the options here. :)
Wryxian
1 decade ago
LFR -loot system
23/03/2012 18:35Posted by Lambey
Wryxian - dont you feel that this ultimately leads to being able to gear up faster?
Because it will mean that if you win loot, it will either be good for you or something you already have? I might be a little groggy having just woken up, but don't you think that in theory, it should still be like that now?

The only reason you should win loot that isn't good for your character at the moment is if you greeded it and were lucky nobody needed it (nobody would press need if they didn't need it, right? *cough*), or you needed it when you don't actually need it (and who would do that? *gasp in mock surprise*). Otherwise you either win something good for you, or you don't.

23/03/2012 18:35Posted by Lambey
would it not have been easier for the programmers to implement IF statements for every spec and class to have it look at what is optimal? say - paladin DPS dont use 2h weapons, dont let them need on 1h, etc.
Maybe that's one approach. Another might be to simply list which items on that boss loot table would be good for which class/spec.
Wryxian
1 decade ago
LFR -loot system
23/03/2012 21:51Posted by Bôbtôwn
Or will you just end up winning an item, just to sell/de it while the 6th on the roll gets really sad, cause the boss could have dropped the "Sword of IPWNULOL" for him, that he is waiting for since months?
If someone is waiting for some loot for months, (which will still be possible in this new system) then their only focus of anger should be on the laws of probability.
Wryxian
1 decade ago
LFR -loot system
It looks promising...but I'm beginning to think it might be over complicated in some way. There appear to be a lot of questions and uncertainty. Granted, that'll probably all clear up when people see the system in action.....
This is the thing, we need to see it in action on a grand scale (and with such a large amount of beta testers incoming, we're going to see that!) and players also need to see it in action too. The system is actually very simple when you look at it, and this is much better explained in the upcoming article from Ghostcrawler. All the explanations from myself and other blue posters are really just to highlight the repercussions of a new system that is at the heart really quite simple.

So yes, we need to see it in action, you do too, and then we need to look at how we can possibly adjust it and make it work best for everyone. The cool thing (at least in my mind) is that we're prepared to look at such a fundamental thing like looting and make such a substantial change. We've not been blind to the feedback we've received about looting and we want to make it right.

And yes, I'm repeating myself but off-specs are not out of our consideration. We're thinking on that one. :)
Wryxian
1 decade ago
LFR -loot system
24/03/2012 09:42Posted by Angerstrike
Is there really no chance a player can reject the loot?
In the current incarnation, no. I can see you've got altruistic reasons why you'd want to reject it, which is admirable. :)

With the new system, having others that might compete for "your" loot item in that boss kill isn't much a problem, because they will have just as much chance of receiving the item you want as you do. So again, not receiving an item you want is due to the the laws of probability. *shakes fist at probability*

But if the system was tweaked so you could also trade them the item you won and they want but you already have, then in a way that actually encourages you to have similar class/spec players in your raid as it means this increases the chances of getting something you (or they) will need.

So I guess there's a fine line that needs to be achieved here. We don't want to discourage players from forming groups with other players that have the same class/spec (which is kinda like it is now) but at the same time we have to be careful not to encourage the opposite, as we want groups to be as diverse (or not) as players choose.

Well, that's my understanding, at least.
Wryxian
1 decade ago
LFR -loot system
Not sure how this will stop ninja looting. From what ive read, EVERYONE in the raid automatically rolls, and the top rolls win?

So for an example...

25 people in a LFR down a boss. 4 of these people are in full heroic raid gear, the rest are in heroic dungeon gear. The 4 raid geared players win with the highest rolls, and just get some gold. The other 21 people, who actually need the gear, get nothing.

Is that how the system will work? If so, i do not understand how this stop ninjas. All it will do is stop ninjas from clicking a button to screw us over, the system does it for them.
So, just to clarify, nobody rolls on anything. Only the laws of probability would "ninja" the item, if by some remote chance it only chose the most highest geared kill participants to win the loot. Chance makes this possible, sure, but I'd guess it wouldn't happen very often.
Wryxian
1 decade ago
LFR -loot system
24/03/2012 11:08Posted by Talen
The current system has its issues - I don't mind Loot trading within a Guild or having a loot council that people have agreed to for example, but the Need Before Greed system needs to be a bit more robust.
Well, again, we're talking about the Raid Finder. But if you are also talking about that too, then it is definitely great to hear that you and those you raid on the Raid Finder with are using the existing loot system in that way.

However, we receive a significant amount of feedback from players who don't see the existing loot system used in such a polite and friendly way. We see quite the opposite. Players needing just because they can, for example, and then giving the item to their friends. This of course inflates the chances that their friend gets the item as opposed to the person who he was rolling against, who had no other friends to help him by pressing need on his behalf.

Using the loot system in this way encourages people to have animosity between each other. The new system, however, directs the animosity at the laws of probability and not at another player.
Wryxian
1 decade ago
LFR -loot system
24/03/2012 11:23Posted by Lenwë
What about the "charms of Good Fortune" ?

I'm carefully avoiding mentioning these super cool items (which I have started to refer to as "Lucky Charms" *giggle*) because these are covered in more detail in the upcoming Ghostcrawler blog. And it's coming real soon now. Suffice to say, these Charms seem very cool and I want lots of them!
Wryxian
1 decade ago
LFR -loot system
24/03/2012 12:23Posted by Stardawn
In my opinion, any evolution of the loot system (I'm not only speaking of LFR here) should aim at minimizing the number of people that will be left aside by the laws of probabilities. They pay the same price as others, and input the same efforts as others but are not as lucky. It should not happen in a leisure activity.
Charms of Good Fortune might be one solution to a player's run of bad fortune.
Edited by Wryxian on 24/03/12 12:35 (GMT)
Wryxian
1 decade ago
LFR -loot system
24/03/2012 12:28Posted by Valestrasza
So my example is correct. Rather than a person having the chose of passing on boss loot tables, they will be forced to roll, and take the gear from a player who would actually need it.
Receiving a gear item does not stop someone else from receiving that same gear item from the same boss kill.
Wryxian
1 decade ago
LFR -loot system
24/03/2012 12:42Posted by Hukilyou
If the "loot system" decides to give him the loot, is there anything that stopping him from just trading it over to me?
Yes. The inability to trade items.
Wryxian
1 decade ago
LFR -loot system
The boss is killed and drops 4 items
Not quite. It'd be more like the boss is killed and chooses, for example, 4 people to receive loot, then gives them loot suitable for their class/spec.
Edited by Wryxian on 24/03/12 12:50 (GMT)
Wryxian
1 decade ago
LFR -loot system
That isnt the point. The system picks the highest rolls, and gives them loot or gold, depending on their needs. People who receive gold would essentially be wasting a roll on the boss, screwing over the other people in the raid who are trying to gear up.
It has always been the case that you don't always win something you need each time you kill a boss. This isn't changing.

And as altruistic as you might be when rolling for loot on the Raid Finder, the unfortunate reality is that a significant amount of other people are not using it in such a commendable way. Significant enough that we wanted to make this change.
Edited by Wryxian on 24/03/12 12:50 (GMT)
Wryxian
1 decade ago
LFR -loot system
As i understand it, this is how the system works:

Boss dies(duh)
System rolls for each person automatically
Lets say...the 4 highest rolling players win
System chooses loot for each player based on their class/spec/role whatever
If the boss has a useable item for that player, they will get it. If not, they get gold

As mentioned, there seems to be some item that grant a second roll? i cannot comment on this, as i have no knowledge of it.
That's right. And the item that grants a second roll is the charms.
Wryxian
1 decade ago
LFR -loot system
24/03/2012 13:09Posted by Terocitas
(still love you Wryxian)
I don't think we're in disagreement, though. The game will choose a certain number of people to win loot.

It's really as simple as this, and this is direct from our developers:

The boss dies.
The game automatically decides who won some loot.
Wryxian
1 decade ago
LFR -loot system
Okay so I'm going to try and transpose the system (as I understand it) using analogous examples in the existing system to help people understand.

Imagine that, with the new system, you kill a boss and then an invisible Loot God rolls a number between 1 and 100. Let's say it decides that 76 is the "cut off" number. Everyone then proceeds to roll automatically.

One character, we'll call him Paladerp, rolls an 84 and then the Loot God looks at his spec and says "Yes, you're a Holy Paladin and you beat my number. You get these now - [Handwraps of Epic Holy Paladiness]. Gz bro.

Meanwhile another character, we'll call him Dethnitearthasdk, rolls and 62. Loot God sees he got a pretty good roll but didn't reach the cut off number. So he doesn't give him get gear, but he got a pretty nice roll so Loot God looks at his spec and see's he's a Frost Death Knight and gives him a Strength Flask.

A character called Bladestormlol rolls a 6. Loot God is disappointed with this poor roll. Bladestormlol is awarded a booby prize of 42g 55s 87c and proceeds to buy fortune cards from the Auction House (and ends up getting the 5000g card).

Finally, another Holy Paladin called Holyhealzors, rolls a solid 98. This doesn't mean he gets the [Handwraps of Epic Holy Paladiness] INSTEAD of Paladerp. Rather both Paladins get the gloves and share a hug and rainbows and unicorns appear all around them because nobody feels like they got conned out of gear.

It might still be the case that a third Holy Paladin (what kind of awful random raid comp is this?) turns around having got no loot and starts screaming that his meters put him way ahead of the other two and that he should get the loot but the fact is, unlike before where his anger is directed at Paladerp, he's now just angry at the system. That's just how loot has to work, sometimes you just can't get your own way because then you'd burn through content in a week or two.

But again, this system is only used in Raid Finder (although it may be expanded on later) and for the world bosses (which I imagine will work a lot like merging Baradin Hold and the fight for Tol Barad into one event) so you don't really have to worry. You don't see Loot God and you don't see your roll, all you know is you got gear or you didn't. Hopefully this process will be conveyed clearly in the system but it is a pretty simple mechanic. It's just different. It's not bad, just different.
Pretty much dead on.

You might get unlucky, sure. But you won't get unlucky because of someone else.
Wryxian
1 decade ago
LFR -loot system
24/03/2012 13:28Posted by Qoo
It would seem to be currently class + current spec.

So what will stop me from queueing in wrong spec in regards to my role if I want gear for my other spec?
A bit confused here.

If you fight in a spec, you have a chance of getting gear for that spec. If you don't, you, er, don't.
Wryxian
1 decade ago
LFR -loot system
btw, it would be good if you took a look at other thread about this in Raids & Dungeons forums, this new systems have so many falws and they are better pointed than in this thread.
I'd rather not divide my attention too much.
Wryxian
1 decade ago
LFR -loot system
I think it's better to not use the word roll. :)

I don't know offhand if there's a maximum or minimum amount of loot winners per kill. If it was all up to chance, it could be that it could be all or none. There might be something in place to prevent either of those extreme scenarios, though.
Wryxian
1 decade ago
LFR -loot system
24/03/2012 13:38Posted by Qoo
Lets say I want to gear my dps spec. Since I don't like queues so I will queue as a healer, still staying in dps spec and not healing but dpsing. Raid will have one less helaers thanks to that. Then I will receive gear relevant to 'the spec I fought with' aka dps gear, regardles of somewhat cheating the system.
To be frank, the criteria it uses for which spec it rewards you with items with is not something I know enough about to clarify.

If there is a way of cheating the system and somehow impacting the raid groups viability, then I suspect we'll work to resolve that. But f we do change the proposed system to allow acquisition of off-spec gear somehow, then maybe it'd be pointless to want to cheat it anyhow.
Wryxian
1 decade ago
LFR -loot system
24/03/2012 14:03Posted by Falathrim
Well, it sounds promising and I've already fallen in love with it, but is there a way to choose not to get anything? like from the beginning before killing begins? Like me, I only need the shield for my holy spec and do LFR and Normal when I can, but with this system, I'll have a chance of getting something else that I don't even need, and it turns to gold, I know if it happens those guildies and with their alts would farm LFRs. But you can implement a minimum ilvl for it.. Like if my itemlevel is +450, I have the ability to remove myself from loot. or only 2-3 person in raids can do it. It's just a silly thought, I know :).
You're right, you might get something you don't need. If you don't want to sell it, then if you choose you can delete the item, which is essentially the same as just not receiving it to begin with. Personally, I'd sell or disenchant it, as a little extra gold or another shard is for me a good thing. :)
Wryxian
1 decade ago
LFR -loot system
24/03/2012 13:58Posted by Grundy
I appreciate Wryxians efforts to convey the system as best as he understands but you have to understand he's not privey to the fine inner workings of the system's programming. You can't make judgements until we have all the information and I hear GC is putting up a post regarding it very soon.
Don't be so sure the article will explain the "fine inner workings of the system's programming" either. I'm referring to it while posting in this thread. (And trying to be mindful not to completely rip off all the information it contains!)
Wryxian
1 decade ago
LFR -loot system
24/03/2012 14:17Posted by Grundy
Eheh, sorry if I'm over stepping my bounds. Just trying to quell the storm of confusion with what I've gathered from various interviews.
No way! Helping other people is a commendable thing. Often just saying something in a different way can go a long way to helping stem the tide of confusion. :)
Wryxian
1 decade ago
LFR -loot system
1) roll for every player that participated in the boss kill and everyone above a set number (let's say 75) gets something

or

2) decide that X players get loot and then rolls for every player that participated in the boss kill and the highest X rolls get something

For a start, let's drop the use of the word "roll" or referring to numbers as it is confusing people.

The boss dies, the game decides who gets loot, those players get loot.

It seems to me to be pointless to over complicate it beyond that simple statement.
Wryxian
1 decade ago
LFR -loot system
There are a number of ways the system could work, but I guess Ghostcrawler is going to explain in full detail how the algorithm is going to work?
Not likely. His explanation is the same as mine, as his words are my source. Maybe we will give more detail in time; who can predict the future.
Wryxian
1 decade ago
LFR -loot system
25/03/2012 06:03Posted by Mitleid
So the new system shifts the anger from other players to the system. Um, how about a system that makes players not angry at all?! Especially since when I am angry at other players, I report them or try to talk them. If I am angry at Blizzard, I just quit.
Well the idea is that the only reason someone should be angry is if they don't get something they want from a boss kill. While previously this anger might have been directed at who got it instead of you, now it is directed at the fact that you just didn't get it this time. And if if you want a system where you always get the loot you need from a boss kill so you never feel disappointed or angry, then unfortunately that isn't what we want the game to be.
Wryxian
1 decade ago
LFR -loot system
You are forgiven :)
Wryxian
1 decade ago
LFR -loot system
In the new looting system, is there a certain number of loot items per boss kill? A minimum, a maximum? Can we have extremes such as everyone or nobody getting loot? These details were a little unclear before, but the reason this is the case is that we're still figuring out exactly how we want it to work in that regard.

By the way, the Ghostcrawler article should be out in about 5 hours. Keep your eyes on our WoW Community site.
Wryxian
1 decade ago
LFR -loot system
27/03/2012 15:39Posted by Mücke
If someone is waiting for some loot for months, (which will still be possible in this new system) then their only focus of anger should be on the laws of probability.
I understand that this has been the designers's party line forever. I admit that controlling randomness isn't simple, either.

But randomness can be controlled.
Yes well, in a past job, I coded some pretty digital fish to breed and mutate over generations, so that they could both display a large range of different colours and this could be inherited from their parents, and passed to their offspring. All very random. But unfortunately, the colours didn't mutate fast enough so I deliberately rigged it so that "random" mutations would be certain to happen every now and then, to ensure we'd end up seeing lots of different coloured fish eventually.

So yes, things can be coded to do whatever you want, within reason. But speculation aside, we can trust that those that code the game know what they're doing and are making the best decisions given the situations they are in. :)
Wryxian
1 decade ago
LFR -loot system
27/03/2012 16:31Posted by Toramir
Wryxian ftw! Looking forward to this loot system post!

Here it is:
http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/blog/3954511/
Wryxian
1 decade ago
LFR -loot system

Asking Clarification please since main point was dodged again

Not quite, see here.
Wryxian
1 decade ago
LFR -loot system
It's cool, we're very aware of the potential for abuse and we're carefully thinking over the options. :)
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