Allnepthys
1 decade ago
So I was in a LFR (yeah shoot me please) waiting for a tank on Dark Animus. A dps gets all upset because the queue is taking awhile and decides to shoot the 1 hp boss starter, leave group and make everyone wipe.
Naturally since I am stupid and naive I think Blizz would want to know something about that to stop that person from doing it again since it's one person basically being a jerk to 24 of their paying customers. You'd think they'd want to know so they could do something easy to stop that person from doing it again or at least make them think twice about it. All they'd have to do is stop that person from doing LFR for a month for example and word would quickly get around.
But lo and behold, there is no way to report a person for that anymore. It's not one of the choices for writing a ticket. The only way to report a person is by right-clicking their name, but he left the group so there is no way to right click his name. PLUS, if you could right click his name there is nothing for reporting something like this anyway. Even though this behaviour is kind of common (now I know why it's common).
Isn't this griefing? Isn't this part of the EULA? The only assumption I can make is Blizz is ok with this, they've certainly guaranteed no one will suffer for it.
So go at it jerks, you've found your game.
Zarhym
Blizzard Employee
1 decade ago
Blizzard says it's ok to be a jerk
The reality is that it's exceedingly difficult -- and not very sustainable -- to try and micro-manage player behavior to the level you want, Allnepthys. Our Customer Support reps do not exist to police morals or, as you suggest, deny people access to content for long periods of time because they can be mean and cause others inconvenience.
Is what that player did cool? Absolutely not. It's a crappy thing to do to a group and it's happened to me.
So what we've done is developed a hidden system that tracks player behavior in matchmade groups on a number of different levels. We don't go into a lot of details about the system for a few reasons: A) we've been constantly evolving how intelligent the system is, B) the system is dynamic so that it can apply penalties based on varying factors -- it's analyzing trends as they change over time and accounting for them in some fashion -- and C) we don't want players to know exactly how the system starts penalizing people for less-than-average behavior and then try to game it.
Suffice it to say, the things you do in a matchmade group matter. If you're above the average in kicking players out of groups, being kicked from groups, or ducking out early (as described in the OP), deserter debuffs, kicking thresholds, and the like become increasingly less forgiving.
As for handing out suspensions or blocking people from matchmaking content for any lengths of time, that's a very different discussion. But the policies and procedures we have in place are considered with extreme care. We want to create the best and most fair environment possible in World of Warcraft, so friends and strangers alike can have a good time. And, as mentioned above, we try to put checks and balances into our game systems to ensure bad behavior isn't rewarded, and becomes very inconvenient for the instigator.
This is a social game and millions of people are playing. It just isn't feasible to expect us to have the personnel to judge every instance of player disruption and dole out whatever punishment the reporting player feels is warranted.
Note: Nowhere in my post did I say being a jerk is okay! I'm not sure how you were misled into believing that's Blizzard's stance based on the situation you laid out, Allnepthys.
So I was in a LFR (yeah shoot me please) waiting for a tank on Dark Animus. A dps gets all upset because the queue is taking awhile and decides to shoot the 1 hp boss starter, leave group and make everyone wipe.
Naturally since I am stupid and naive I think Blizz would want to know something about that to stop that person from doing it again since it's one person basically being a jerk to 24 of their paying customers. You'd think they'd want to know so they could do something easy to stop that person from doing it again or at least make them think twice about it. All they'd have to do is stop that person from doing LFR for a month for example and word would quickly get around.
But lo and behold, there is no way to report a person for that anymore. It's not one of the choices for writing a ticket. The only way to report a person is by right-clicking their name, but he left the group so there is no way to right click his name. PLUS, if you could right click his name there is nothing for reporting something like this anyway. Even though this behaviour is kind of common (now I know why it's common).
Isn't this griefing? Isn't this part of the EULA? The only assumption I can make is Blizz is ok with this, they've certainly guaranteed no one will suffer for it.
So go at it jerks, you've found your game.
Edited by Zarhym 06/18/2013 02:45 AM
Zarhym
Blizzard Employee
1 decade ago
Blizzard says it's ok to be a jerk
So what we've done is developed a hidden system that tracks player behavior in matchmade groups on a number of different levels
....So you guys know that I get my characters naked and /dance while we're waiting for additional members to queue in in the event that we do have someone douchepull?
Ohdear.
Yes, that we have the staff for, but only because we're much harsher critics of peoples' dance moves than we are of the way they treat others.
I kid! <3
/cower
Zarhym
Blizzard Employee
1 decade ago
Blizzard says it's ok to be a jerk
So what we've done is developed a hidden system that tracks player behavior in matchmade groups on a number of different levels. We don't go into a lot of details about the system for a few reasons: A) we've been constantly evolving how intelligent the system is, B) the system is dynamic so that it can apply penalties based on varying factors -- it's analyzing trends as they change over time and accounting for them in some fashion -- and C) we don't players to know exactly how the system starts penalizing people for less-than-average behavior and then try to game it.
/tinfoilhat the more you kick people and leave early the less likely you are to get loot ._______.
Erm, that's actually worthy of clarification, heh. No, your loot chances (or virtually anything about gameplay inside a dungeon, outside of how liberal you can be with kicks) are not affected by your behavior.
Zarhym
Blizzard Employee
1 decade ago
Blizzard says it's ok to be a jerk
Just to check my understanding: the thread was not about griefing or players being given the all-clear to grief others, but was always about how it's not as simple to report a player as in the past.
Is that right?
I assume that players like the OP take a lack of enforcement to mean there are no rules, although can't see the logic that connects those two points.
You bring up another point worth clarifying, regarding reporting options. If a player is reported for being mean by pulling a boss and then dropping group, verifying that behavior isn't a simple task. When I was speaking about feasibility, this is a good example. We don't have the time to take countless reports of this kind of behavior and pull game logs to verify that a player was, without a doubt, griefing. Looking at lines of code to verify that a jerk move took place is overly complicated and can't be applied effectively to every player going through the matchmaking system at any hour of the day.
The other option is for a GM, upon receiving a report of jerkishness, to watch the reported player for a given amount of time and see if he repeats the behavior for which he was reported. It's not a good means of actually catching people and still demands a lot of time.
But to reiterate, our goal is to curb bad behavior on the development side as much as possible through the way our systems are designed, by making acts of griefing as discussed here harder to pull off, or at least result in an inconvenience to the player that increases in severity for repeat offenses.
Zarhym
Blizzard Employee
1 decade ago
Blizzard says it's ok to be a jerk
So what we've done is developed a hidden system that tracks player behavior in matchmade groups on a number of different levels
You sir just rocked my world, I can appreciate the intricacy in creating a system for something like this so I won't ask for many details but these 2 if thats ok?
1.) How long has this been running in one form or another?
2.) Why have I not heard about this until now?
I don't wish to speak for others generally but I think news of this magnitude would of been welcome to my ears long long ago. Carry on soldier and keep up the great work.
1) The system has been around ever since matchmaking for dungeons was introduced in Wrath of the Lich King, though as I said, it's evolved quite a bit over time. :)
2) I guess it hasn't really been out in front of everyone's faces, so I can see how you wouldn't have heard of it. That said, we've discussed it in the past many times. I know I've posted about several times since Dungeon Finder was released. I believe there have even been patch notes or hotfixes about it at times, as there was at least one occasion where some of the thresholds were off and overly penalizing, to the point that a number of players were posting concerns about it on the forums.
Edited by Zarhym 06/18/2013 03:14 AM
Zarhym
Blizzard Employee
1 decade ago
Blizzard says it's ok to be a jerk
It does seem a little silly if you get kicked a lot you get some sort of protection against that.
The whole point of getting kicked is because your failing to perform some role or function.
It sounds like the system is designed to prevent abuse towards other players, but by being that way it actually caters to the people who do abuse the system and punishes those who do not.
Getting kicked a lot isn't a good thing. But it is a factor that's monitored. I probably wasn't clear enough on that in my first post.
Zarhym
Blizzard Employee
1 decade ago
Blizzard says it's ok to be a jerk
The thing is though, the developers can totally influence player behaviour by the way they design the game.
Back when I played my first MMORPG, the rules were so strict that people couldn't afford to be jerks. They needed to form groups. Player reputation meant everything, because it was even possible to go backwards in progress and de-level.
It's the little things in WoW that ruin it, too. Things like mob-tagging. It's great that some mobs can be shared by players outside of the same party now, but it should be for all quest mobs(for your faction, at least).
Or even the gameplay itself. The team work is entirely based around performing your role well. Content is generally completed and you're rewarded or it's not completed. There's no "score" to reward us with--outside of Challenge modes. Therefore, there's nothing to encourage PUG players to really work together. This results in the culture we have where DPS players are only concerned about DPS charts, and what not.
You make a lot of good points. I'd just add that I've had countless discussions with some of our lead developers about this type of thing. They're aware of the social implications of things like matchmaking, the relative ease with which 25 strangers can complete raid content via LFR, etc., and they're absolutely committed to designing the game in such a way that it doesn't pay to be a jerk, and ideally rewards people for not only not being a jerk, but for being friendly and social. We may not always succeed. We may still have work to do. But the awareness, adeptness, and commitment are all there. ;)
Edited by Zarhym 06/18/2013 03:37 AM
Zarhym
Blizzard Employee
1 decade ago
Blizzard says it's ok to be a jerk
Zar? Are you able to post on your CM account from home, or is there actually a reason to be at work at what must be 8 PM on a Monday?
Edit: I apologize if it's none of my business. And you're getting a hug regardless. ^^
:: huggles ::
I can post from home. I'm not. But you bring up a good point. There's still a lot of week left. :D
Zarhym
Blizzard Employee
1 decade ago
Blizzard says it's ok to be a jerk
You bring up another point worth clarifying, regarding reporting options. If a player is reported for being mean by pulling a boss and then dropping group, verifying that behavior isn't a simple task. When I was speaking about feasibility, this is a good example. We don't have the time to take countless reports of this kind of behavior and pull game logs to verify that a player was, without a doubt, griefing. Looking at lines of code to verify that a jerk move took place is overly complicated and can't be applied effectively to every player going through the matchmaking system at any hour of the day.
The other option is for a GM, upon receiving a report of jerkishness, to watch the reported player for a given amount of time and see if he repeats the behavior for which he was reported. It's not a good means of actually catching people and still demands a lot of time.
But to reiterate, our goal is to curb bad behavior on the development side as much as possible through the way our systems are designed, by making acts of griefing as discussed here harder to pull off, or at least result in an inconvenience to the player that increases in severity for repeat offenses.
Kindly correct me if I am wrong.
" Blizzard currently do not have the necessary means to enforce actions on that particular type of behavior, and have no wish to do so into a foreseeable future"
"Hooray for grifers! Let's do it again to the LFR people again for lulz! Blizzard has said it's too complicated to stop us and neither will they expend additional efforts to do so! Today is a victory for all griefers! Huzzah"
Well that was a depressing summary. Thanks for totally bumming me out, man.
Zarhym
Blizzard Employee
1 decade ago
Blizzard says it's ok to be a jerk
06/17/2013 08:27 PMPosted by
Snowfox I can see how you wouldn't have heard of it.
I'm sorry Zarhym.. Forgive me.
http://i.imgur.com/Sj7mHpL.jpg
I bite my thumb at you.
Zarhym
Blizzard Employee
1 decade ago
Blizzard says it's ok to be a jerk
While we're apologizing, I'd like to apologize to Zarhym too.
A year or two ago, I started to buy into the whole "Blizzard employees hate the Alliance" thing. Shortly after, you seemed to get rather upset by the whole situation.
So I'm sorry, Zarhym, if anything I said back then offended you.
In what little defence there is for that, your posts around then changed my mind on the whole thing.
<3
I don't take it too personally, though I was personally invested in the debate. It's a tough one. I understand where the concerns come from, but the conclusions that are drawn from them are often unfortunately hyperbolic and fueled by conspiracies.
